On the climate change topic I'm of the opinion that the only constant is change. And up to now it's not caused by humans. We have about 400ppm CO2 now in the lower parts of the atmosphere, in greenhouses they bring the CO2 to around 1500ppm because the plants grow better and produce more. Sea levels haven't gone up. But that's no reason for us to keep polluting the environment we live in and off. Look in Beijing, a couple of miles visibility on a clear day. And in Japan we still have 3 melted down nuclear reactors leaking uncontrollably into the ocean and there is little we can do about it so far. IMO the human caused global warming is a distraction of the real problems and also mean to give the powers that be more control, specifically over your energy usage. Also I'm pretty sure several clean energy generators have been invented in the past century that are being withheld because it would limit the control over energy compared to what we have today. One obvious example is a car that was developed in 1973 during a fuel efficiency contest organised and funded by oil company Shell. They modified a 1959 Opel P1 and achieved a mileage of 376mpg/160km per liter. And that was 45 years ago with a car that was already 14 years old. http://www.376mpg.com/ documentary with several clean and super efficient energy generators. [youtube=rnV1s-a9wZs]

schmidtbag:

I see what you're saying, but for people like myself, the issue is people who buy hundreds of GPUs for the sole purpose of generating money. If you want to use your gaming PC to mine for coins, go ahead - I see nothing wrong in that at all. But to make it your business, that's a little scummy.

How is it scummy to buy a product you're allowed to buy, however much you want to buy for that matter since there are no legal limits on them, and to use them however you want? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xq1r09ZVfOg/maxresdefault.jpg ^ That's a GPU folding at home beast that people have been buying many GPUs to create. But no one has a problem with that. Now, before you say "well, folding@home and etc. hasn't driven the price of GPUs up" Well, sure, because it doesn't pay you to do it (though i hear that has kinda changed?) If it did pay you, and people flocked to buy GPUs the same way they are now, then would you be saying the same thing? Or because it's folding@home, you wouldn't? Both are completing tasks, the only difference someone could say about them is that they don't care about what task is being completed by one of them, to complain about one of them.

schmidtbag:

I think the implication was the amount of hardware dedicated to mining went up 29.98%. So yeah, the amount of watts needed per platform hasn't gone up, but the amount of platforms have gone up.

It didn't though. More then likely the dip in performance was caused by segwit2x, when people stopped mining bitcoin, and mined the failed bitcoin hard fork. Once that failed, that same hardware that stopped, went back to bitcoin. Unless they are not talking about bitcoin, only, but the problem with that is they have been talking about bitcoin, only, when it comes to watt usage. If mining, itself, increased by 29.98%, i could almost see that as possible, due to D3s, but to be honest, i still doubt that figure, and would find it very difficult for someone to go to all the different kind of cryptocurrencies out there and compare each and every single one of them, and see how much they all increase, and then somehow get the increase from that.

schmidtbag:

Again, there's a difference between hobby and your job. I have a friend whose hobby is to do business consultations for a small fee, but that's not how he makes his living. Using your gaming PC to collect bitcoins while its idle is totally reasonable and just a hobby. Even retiring a gaming PC for such a thing could be just a hobby. But the people who everyone is complaining about are waaaay beyond hobby level; this is their life investment.

And why is that wrong? What part of that is wrong? There's a business to be had, and people are doing just that, with it. My hobby is building computers, generally for people i know, with very little added on top. I don't really make money on it, but what would be the problem if i did? Why would that ever, ever be a problem? It's simply unjustified for people to be upset that people are trying to make a living within a system that they CAN make a living. I have 1 ASIC, soon to be 2, the first one is making me around $600 a month, not including inflation. The 2nd one will probably make me around $1500 a month, not including inflation. If i get, say 2 more ASICs, and am making around $4000 a month, that is making a living. My power bill for them would also be around $200 or less a month. There's nothing wrong with that. That being said, GPU mining in my opinion is mostly a lost cause. Its too high of cost for too little of ROI. I, personally, don't understand why they do it.

schmidtbag:

They're expending a scary amount of finite energy (keep in mind, most miners are in places that use fossil fuels) on something that does literally nothing but give the person money.

And that's where your mindset is wrong. It's only doing nothing, because you want to believe its doing nothing. If one day cryptocurrency just disappears, oh well too bad. People tried to do something and ended up with nothing in the end. But this happens all across the world. Companies try and make products, spend money, spend power, resources(minerals etc.) on products day in and day out, that never see the light of day, and many times never even get transferred to a different product. But obviously, not all do. And whose to say cryptocurrency(as a whole) is one of those? You? Anyone else on this forum? Am i missing something, or can someone here see the future? See what cryptocurrency becomes? No? So really what people are getting upset about is something they see as worthless, either because they don't believe in it, or don't understand it, and want to, instead, tell everyone else what they are doing is worthless, before they actually know, since obviously they can not see the future? Yeah, i seem to remember people saying bitcoin won't ever live past 2012, or get over $100, or for that matter, $1, and that people would expect it'd just die within 6 months years and years ago. Aswell, people said that about smart phones ones. Heck, they said it about netflix streaming, redbox, and so many other huge things that are in our lives today. "Oh that'll never be relevant, don't get behind it, it's worthless technology that isn't useful now and won't be useful in the future"

Aura89:

How is it scummy to buy a product you're allowed to buy, however much you want to buy for that matter since there are no legal limits on them, and to use them however you want? ^ That's a GPU folding at home beast that people have been buying many GPUs to create. But no one has a problem with that.

It's simple: People don't have a problem with folding because has an altruistic objective. It actually does something (or at the very least, intends to). Mining is strictly selfish.

Well, sure, because it doesn't pay you to do it (though i hear that has kinda changed?) If it did pay you, and people flocked to buy GPUs the same way they are now, then would you be saying the same thing? Or because it's folding@home, you wouldn't? Both are completing tasks, the only difference someone could say about them is that they don't care about what task is being completed by one of them, to complain about one of them.

No, I wouldn't say the same thing, for the reason I just mentioned. Take supercomputers owned by corporations and schools for example - they are FAR more power-hungry than what any miner is going to build, but I have no problem with them, because they're doing something useful. That doesn't mean I agree with what they're calculating, but it isn't just arbitrary number crunching.

It didn't though. More then likely the dip in performance was caused by segwit2x, when people stopped mining bitcoin, and mined the failed bitcoin hard fork. Once that failed, that same hardware that stopped, went back to bitcoin. Unless they are not talking about bitcoin, only, but the problem with that is they have been talking about bitcoin, only, when it comes to watt usage.

People tend to use Bitcoin as a catch-all for cryptocurrency. From what I hear, Ethereum is what GPU buyers are the most interested in. Bitcoin, to my knowledge, never caused any market problems for PCs because everyone just used ASIC miners, which were more cost and energy effective. But Ethereum [for now] is more efficient with GPUs.

And why is that wrong? What part of that is wrong? There's a business to be had, and people are doing just that, with it. My hobby is building computers, generally for people i know, with very little added on top. I don't really make money on it, but what would be the problem if i did? Why would that ever, ever be a problem? It's simply unjustified for people to be upset that people are trying to make a living within a system that they CAN make a living.

It's wrong because it's selfish and wasteful. You are consuming a lot of power, contributing toward NOTHING at all, while maybe gaining money out of it. Remember, people who partake in this are gambling the value of the currency they are mining for. There's no promise that you'll even keep what you "earned". For the time being, the value is good.

I have 1 ASIC, soon to be 2, the first one is making me around $600 a month, not including inflation. The 2nd one will probably make me around $1500 a month, not including inflation. If i get, say 2 more ASICs, and am making around $4000 a month, that is making a living. My power bill for them would also be around $200 or less a month.

I find that very hard to believe. I don't think Bitcoin mining is anywhere near as profitable as you think it is if you think getting a couple ASICs is enough to live off of. If you live in the US, chances are, your power bill is not going to be lower than $0.10KW/h. If you're consuming just 2KW per month (including other personal electronics, appliances, air conditioning, etc) then you are not going to reliably survive on mining: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-electricity-consumption-ethereum-energy-climate-change

That being said, GPU mining in my opinion is mostly a lost cause. Its too high of cost for too little of ROI. I, personally, don't understand why they do it.

Like stated before: Ethereum mining.

And that's where your mindset is wrong. It's only doing nothing, because you want to believe its doing nothing. If one day cryptocurrency just disappears, oh well too bad. People tried to do something and ended up with nothing in the end. But this happens all across the world. Companies try and make products, spend money, spend power, resources(minerals etc.) on products day in and day out, that never see the light of day, and many times never even get transferred to a different product.

I could argue your mindset is wrong. This is a scary amount of energy and hardware being made for a specific purpose which does nothing and will always do nothing. When a company makes a failed product, they don't usually get far enough to create a concerning amount of waste (of either manpower, energy, or physical resources). Worst-case scenario, it becomes an example of what not to do, and for us to learn from.

Yeah, i seem to remember people saying bitcoin won't ever live past 2012, or get over $100, or for that matter, $1, and that people would expect it'd just die within 6 months years and years ago. Aswell, people said that about smart phones ones. Heck, they said it about netflix streaming, redbox, and so many other huge things that are in our lives today. "Oh that'll never be relevant, don't get behind it, it's worthless technology that isn't useful now and won't be useful in the future"

You're comparing the evolution of technology to something that has no intrinsic value at all... The inverse of your comparison can also be said: Look at all the hugely popular pitches on Kickstarter or Indie GoGo that became a major disappointment or never came to fruition. You can also consider products and fads that were super popular or practical that we look back on like "wow, that seemed horrible" or "why did people like this?". And I'm not just referring to things that were obsoleted. For example: Pogs, Pokemon Go, or Vine. Anyway, go ahead and justify these "career" choices all you want - I'm not going to stop you/them. But, there is not any amount of evidence you can provide that will convince me that there is nothing wrong with mining.

Greetings to the fellow travelers, if there are any here 🙂 We are talking about using electric energy to generate proffit selfish, not murdering babies selfish, laying off thousands or invading foreign countries selfish. Anyone with the capitalist mindset arguing against ASIC/GPU mining because it's selfish, needs a fvking head examination. Jesus would be more fine with the crypto mining, then with the million other things we're doing on a daily basis.

Noisiv:

We are talking about using electric energy to generate proffit selfish, not murdering babies or invading foreign countries selfish. Anyone with the capitalist mindset arguing against ASIC/GPU mining because it's selfish, needs a fvking head examination.

In case you didn't read the article, this is a massive amount of electricity for a relatively small amount of participants. If you want to get pedantic, you could also consider things like global warming, which mining is definitely contributing toward at this rate (collectively anyway), which indirectly will be murdering babies. Not sure how arguing against mining due to its selfishness gives someone a capitalistic mindset... that doesn't really make sense.

Jesus would be more fine with the crypto mining, then with the million other things we're doing on a daily basis.

That I can agree on. But whether you pickpocket someone or murder them in cold blood, you're still a criminal. I'm not saying miners are criminals, but my point is you can't undo a wrong by comparing it to worse things. EDIT: But if comparing to the millions of other truly terrible things is the way you like to look at things, consider the fact that energy being used on mining could be done to research cures to diseases, the human genome, or physics. When compared to that, how is mining not a problem?

schmidtbag:

Not sure how arguing against mining due to its selfishness gives someone a capitalistic mindset.

It doesn't. I said: Anyone with the capitalist mindset arguing against ASIC/GPU mining... Here is a fun little fact that I've just came up with, in regard to alleged BTC terrible waste of energy: BTC market capitalization divided by electricity used for BTC generation is 2 times higher than the global stock market cap divided by the global electric energy use. Not terribly meaningful, I know, but it puts things into perspective.

D3M1G0D:

Although most of the people who mine do it for selfish reasons, mining itself is necessary for the cryptocurrency network to function - if miners didn't exist then there would be no way to validate transactions, and the entire network would come to a halt. Also, even those who run folding@home (or any other grid computing app) may not do it for completely altruistic purposes; some may do it for pride, as it can be a way of showing off the power of their system (team and global rankings exist for a reason, and people can get really finicky about their credit/points).

Agreed, though, I also couldn't care less if cryptocurrency didn't exist. However, it is nice in the sense that its value continues to go up, and, it is (in some ways) a universal currency. As for mining to show off their system's power, that's fine with me. Like I said before, I am perfectly fine with mining for a hobby, or to devote your unused hardware to.

Fùck off the free market, mining is disgusting.

airbud7:

What!....What other market you want?......;)

Common sense? Wasting power (and heat) to compute the nothing is disgusting.

airbud7:

The cryptocurrency was trading at £8,914.67 at the time of writing, with a single bitcoin now worth a massive $11,935.34

So what? An expensive pile of crap is stil a pile of crap, still disgusting.

airbud7:

Yeah, well, whatever...I wish I had a bunch of them bitcoin things.

And I wish I could shìt gold like a Lannister..